Heather Cox Richardson Talks the State of Democracy, Ousting a Speaker, and Why to Stay Hopeful Despite It All

Heather Cox Richardson is a professor of history at Boston College and an expert on American political and economic history. Her new book Democracy Awakening: Notes on the State of America is available now. You can subscribe to her wildly popular newsletter, Letters from an American, here.

Full Transcript:

Heather: I'm listening to all the names of all the people who are joining from all over the country and all over the world and thinking, Isn't it cool to have this many people joining in these communities that are looking to raise each other up and to protect democracy? It's just a wonderful thing.

Maria: Thank you for saying that. Heather, I couldn't agree with you more. I hope they're coming to listen to your sage counsel, your wise advice. It always gives me hope when I come on something like this and I see so many people from everywhere who are kind, good hearted, want to move humanity forward and as you said, want to be involved in our democracy. Your book is on The New York Times bestseller list. Bravo.

Heather: Well, thank you. But I think it's a symbol of the community. I had the pleasure of holding the pen, or typing, but the questions and comments and ideas that we as a community have come up with over the past four years—I learned a lot writing the book, and feel like it's been a real journey with a bunch of people, not just with me.

Maria: Heather, this kind of moment we're being told is unprecedented in our democracy. First time the speaker has been ousted. We have a former president on trial. What do you make of this moment in our history? Right now? You wrote yesterday that eight people could kind of cause this incredible moment—this constitutional crisis for lack of a better word.

Heather: Well, yes, it is an unprecedented moment. But you know, I'm sitting here today, I'm in California, looking out the window and thinking, What? How did we get here? I mean, this is not okay. It is not okay to have eight people be able to shut down the government of one of the world's superpowers. The idea of eight people who have themselves never managed to put forward any kind of legislation that went into law, who are looking at putting in place a speaker of the House who is boasting of the best legislation that they have passed being legislation that didn't go into law … we're in this very specific moment. But the larger picture is we have to summon all-star democracy in favor of a small political minority that is trying to dictate to the rest of us. And that is really the story of our age.

Maria: How did we get here? And how do we get out of this mess?

Heather: So how we got here, I think is in part because of our faith in human nature. I think a lot of us just weren't paying attention, because we believe that the guardrails of democracy we're going to hold. That is ever since 1933, members from all parties have believed that the government had a role to play regulating business so it didn't get out of control, providing a basic social safety net, like Social Security and Medicare, investing in infrastructure, like our roads and bridges, and protecting civil rights, so that states couldn't say that you get worse rights than anybody else does because of the color of your skin or your gender or your class. And we just sort of thought that was going to stay in place. And we still know that most Americans by a large majority expect and want that kind of government to continue. And I think we just didn't think it was really going to be challenged. How often do you hear, Oh, they're not really coming for Social Security, even though it's in writing that they are. So, I think we weren't paying close enough attention and expecting that those guardrails would hold. And when that happened, we gave up the crucial nodes of our democracy to a political minority that is weaponizing that against the majority of us.

Now, the real question, which you just asked, is, How do we get it back? And the answer is that we get involved. And we get involved not only in the voting and the giving money the way that everybody talks about, but the way I think you change society is by putting skin in the game—taking up oxygen and saying to people, No, I don't want a government where eight people can shut down the government. I don't want a government that's going to dictate what my children can or can't read in public schools. I don't want a government … and you can fill in that last line yourself. It doesn't have to be what you or I would fill in. But it says, I'm going to get involved and I'm going to make sure this government reflects my values—not those of people who don't share them.

Maria: I've read that you’ve said a democracy only works when everybody's involved in the democracy, right? And yet we have so many people who are saying right now, There's nothing I can do. If eight people can hold the government or stop the government, what can I do? What’s really going to make any difference?

Heather: Well, I love that argument. Because if you look at book banding in the schools, we now know that all those book bans got very large play across the country as part of a movement, in fact most of the challenges to books in school were by literally a handful of people. In one in one state, it was as few as two. Two. Not 2,000, not 20,000, two. Eleven in another [state]. So the idea that individuals don't matter I think is a way of convincing people to strip them of their agency. But look at what has happened really, since the Dobb’s decision of June of 2022. When in fact, we got the Roe vs. Wade from 1973, that protected the constitutional right to reproductive rights. Since then, the backlash to that has been so extraordinary—by ordinary people, especially ordinary women, primarily young women who might not have voted in the past—that the Republicans who were really pushing those anti-choice laws and the draconian abortion regulation, don't talk about it anymore. They're trying to use new language. They're trying to say, Oh, we really didn't mean to be very much against abortion, because they recognize that that's not something the American people want. You see that in things like Justice Clarence Thomas recusing himself from a January 6th case the other day, for the first time. So, if people feel alone, the answer is, don't be alone. Find a friend, and then find another friend, and then find another friend. And look how many people are following you online. That's a really big community in a country that only has about 331 million people. Several million people is enough to change the world.

Maria: I love those examples you just gave. I hope people take them in. Because over and over, I hear, I can't do anything. I'm too small, I'm alone. And Heather just gave really great examples that are happening right now, in real time, of individual people finding another person and another person and making their voices heard. We saw that I think in 2016, people who never thought about running for office said, I'm in! I’m going to run.

So many people say we seem united on these kinds of really big issues, but the media or what I'm reading tells us we're hopelessly divided. And the government that we have doesn't really reflect the vast majority of us who agree on gun control, who might agree on a woman's right to choose. Is our government archaic in the way we elect people, because they don't reflect the majority of us?

Heather: These are wonderful questions that are in a little bit in their own lanes. If you look at any kind of statistics, we'll see that you're exactly right: Most Americans agree on gun safety laws to the tune of around 80 percent. That's an around, not exactly on. They believe in a woman's right to choose by strong majorities, again around 70 percent. We have strong majorities who want us to address climate change. And you're correct that the vast majority of us remain committed to a government that does those four things that it's done since the 1930s, but it's not reflected in our politics. And the question is, How do we address the fact that our government, the way it is currently set up, is not reflecting our interests? And that is a problem that is: the need to get people out to vote and to challenge those laws that are suppressing the vote because they are. If I hear one more time, Why aren't Black people turning out to vote? my head's going to explode, because the reason they're not turning out to vote is that they are turning out to vote, but the laws have been written in such a way that they discriminate against certain populations of people voting. That's really important.

But that being said, there are longer term adjustments that we as a growing nation—and I’ve just got to throw this out, as a nation with steel frame construction. When the framers put together the proportional representation in the House of Representatives, they had no idea we could have cities because until you had steel beginning in 1873, you couldn't have buildings that were taller than three stories high because you couldn't build walls that were thick enough. So there are ways in which modern society is requiring that we change our system to reflect the ideals of modern America. But that's not something that's going to happen before 2024. What needs to happen before 2024 is for people to make their voices heard and to make sure that those voices are reflected in the voting booth and who’s allowed in the voting booth.

Maria: Has there ever been a moment like this in our history that can help guide us in this moment, where we have been, “hopelessly divided” or where we had a version of a constitutional crisis but somehow, we found our way forward?

Heather: There is. There's a lot of things. But the piece that I like to look at is the 1850s. Everyone wonders if I'm suggesting a civil war, and I'm not. But the 1850s are very instructive for where we are right now. Because if you would’ve looked at the United States in the 1850s, you would have recognized that elite enslavers in the American South had control of the presidency, the Supreme Court, the Senate, and had made inroads in the House of Representatives. And they were very clearly saying they believe that they should have enslavement spread across the United States, and then be used as a beacon for the rest of the globe as introducing a new kind of what they call the labor system, but it was one based in race, of course, that would enable people to amass wealth at the top and therefore improve through the auspices of those very few very wealthy people.

In 1853, it looked like their way was absolutely clear. And nobody was really paying that much attention. Because, you know, it was about politics, it was the Whigs, and it was the Democrats, and whatever so long as your guy got elected, it didn't matter so much. And then in 1854, they managed to make big enough votes in the House of Representatives that in fact, they made it possible for human enslavement to spread not only in the south, but in the West. With 1854, people who did not want to spread human enslavements, looked at each other and said, You know, I disagree with you about immigration, I disagree with you about financing, I disagree with you about internal improvements. But by God, I agree with you that we must not have a system that's based in human enslavement that creates wealth among the very few people who are going to create an American oligarchy instead of democracy.

By 1856, they have started a new political party to stand against those people. By 1859, they have a rising lawyer named Abraham Lincoln, who articulated a new vision of government that helps ordinary people rather than the very wealthy. By 1860, Lincoln was elected to the White House. By 1861, he has signed the Emancipation Proclamation ending human enslavement in America. By 1863, he has given the Gettysburg Address, rededicating the nation to a basis of the Declaration of Independence that all people must be treated equally before the law and have a right to a say in their government.

Less than 10 years we go from the whole world is going to be full of enslavement to the whole world is going to be freedom. And the way that happened was a number of amazing people like Abraham Lincoln. But it was really the people on the ground. It was really the people on the ground saying, Wait a minute, I'm paying attention now, and that's not the country I want.

And that's what this moment looks like to me.

Maria: I just have to say, that just gave me goosebumps. Thank you for that kind of history lesson in such a tight capsule there. I hope everybody appreciates what you just heard, because that's some serious intelligence. That's deep understanding of our country, our democracy, our history, which I think so many people have lost sight out of. And beautifully put, it was about the people—and then a leader who had the courage. So often, credit is just given to Lincoln. But what you just said is that it was actually the people that woke up, and much like this moment, they woke up and said, Wait a minute. And then that made way also for the leader.

So it was people working kind of simultaneously together, and all of a sudden, everything got changed. It took time. And we're an impatient world today, right? So people don't really want to spend 10 years maybe creating that change. But that was really such a beautiful moment.

Finally, are you confident about our democracy? How would you characterize this moment?

Heather: I think that's correct: Our democracy is fragile and in trouble. I am very concerned about what's happening in the house right now. I'm very concerned about the speakership. I'm very concerned about the government funding, that the clock for funding the government runs out shortly before Thanksgiving. And I'm extraordinarily concerned about funding for Ukraine. These are things that literally keep me up at night. And yet, we have faced moments in this country in the past that look very similar to where we are today. I believe both in American democracy, which I think is the closest possible government we get to guaranteeing human self-determination. But at the end of the day, that is really my answer. I think that human beings as part of the human project, not just a political project, but the human project want to own their own destinies. I think most people want to have control over their destinies and want to protect their ability to have a say in their futures. And that ultimately, is what democracy and what American democracy is all about. So I do think in the end, that the strong men who are trying to rise will fall as all strong men always do. I would just like that to happen sooner rather than later so that the damage is as limited as it can possibly be.

Maria: I think your incredible warning is that the vast majority of us have taken [our government] for granted, that it would work, right? We fell asleep at the wheel. And this is the moment not to step further back, but to reengage—to find an issue, to find a way. Because if not us, it ends up in the hands of people. And we turn around and say, How did that happen?

Heather: One of the things I'd like to emphasize is that while it's a frightening time, it's also a time of extraordinary creativity. So yes, it is sort of scary to go speak at your at your local school board, or to run for a local office, or do any of the many things that people are doing. But if you think about these times of chaos, like the 1850s, or like the 1990s, or the 1920s, they are also times of extraordinary invention, and of art, and of literature, and of painting and of new communities and new ways of thinking about the world. So it's not just a question any longer of finding a holding action, which is what I feel like people like me did for a long time when no one was paying attention. Now that tide is moving forward. And so it's not just a question of saying, let's not go back any further. It's saying, wait a minute, I have a special set of skills, or I have new ideas, and pushing those forward. And that, to me is an extraordinarily exciting time, as well as the frightening side of it. So this whole thing going on in the country that is in so many ways so horrifying is also a time of new communities and new friendships and new literature and new ways of thinking about the world. I mean, you and I are talking on these little boxes from different continents. Seizing that joy is also crucial to this moment. And I think it's something that people like the ones who follow both of us are really good at.

Maria: Heather has got a new book out. It's called Democracy Awakening, and you can also follow her on Substack. She writes, every day, I write once a week, and I'm exhausted. You're writing every day. I mean, at some point, I want to figure out how you do that—how do you get that think time and clarity?

Heather: Well, it's not to say I'm not tired. But I have the privilege of having been extraordinarily well trained. And so that really helps a lot. Plus, in a funny way, it’s like a story that just keeps on going. You know, it’s not like I'm going to say, I don't care what happens today. Even if it's not much, I want to know, What's the next chapter?

Maria: So, follow Heather! She brings you up to date. She reassures you. She puts politics in context. And she reminds us how important it is to know our history to be involved. She is the best teacher that's out there. I don't care what political party you are in. I don't care about your age. Please follow her and be reassured and then get involved.

Heather Cox Richardson, thank you for taking the time. I hope we can do this again. The comments here are extraordinary. You just gave us all a really good lesson that we need to be reminded not to be asleep at the wheel and to get involved. So, thank you so much. Congratulations on the book. Bravo for all the writing. And carry on.

We are printing this transcript in The Sunday Paper. I hope it will help guide all of us and remind all of us to get involved, and that all is not lost but all will be lost if we don’t.

Please note this transcript was generated from the audio file and may contain errors. Please refer to the linked video to confirm accuracy.