Sharon “Says So” McMahon and Maria Make Sense of the Political Turbulence Defining This Moment

If you aren’t sure how to feel about what’s happening in the presidential election, don’t worry, it’s not just you! Maria got together with the amazing Sharon “Says So” McMahon to help make sense of the moment in a special Current Affairs Edition of Conversations Above the Noise.

Keep up with Sharon on Instagram and her Substack, The Preamble. And don't forget to preorder Sharon's forthcoming book, The Small and the Mighty: Twelve Unsung Americans Who Changed The Course Of History, From The Founding To The Civil Rights Movement coming this September.

Full Transcript:

Please note this transcript was generated from the audio file using a transcription service and may contain errors. Please refer to the linked video to confirm accuracy.

Maria
I'm so thrilled to be talking to my friend Sharon McMahon who tells us on the ongoing, on the daily, what is going on, how to make sense, what is our history? What should we know and puts it all in perspective. Sharon, we are in a moment that needs scene-setting that needs sense, that needs your perspective. What do you make of this moment in our history?

Sharon
It is, it is absolutely a challenging one. And I think all Americans are feeling it, right. There's nobody who is like: this is all the solid, normal, and I feel great about it. No one is feeling that way. No matter who you are hoping to vote for in November, chances are very good that you are really feeling it right now. And so when you combine a very challenging election climate because of this rematch of two people who have matched before, and you have all kinds of instability surrounding who the Democratic nominee might be, all of these calls for the sitting president to step aside from his candidacy, an assassination attempt, all of these things put together are you know, creating a very unique circumstance in history. That's not to say we have not had other unique circumstances before but this one, in the words of so many people on the internet, “I would like to go back to precedented times.” If we could have something that's more precedented and a little less unprecedented. I think that's how a lot of people are feeling right now.

Maria
I think so many people, I talked to my kids, and they're like, “I can't believe the way one political party is attacking its own, turning.” And my kids like, “Has that ever happened before?” Have you ever seen something like this? You have a sitting president, who has said, emphatically “I'm running, I'm the nominee” and the entire party or not the entire party, but many of the very vocal, powerful members of the party are saying, “Gotta go, you gotta go. You're dragging us down.” Have you ever seen that before?

Sharon
No, no. It has happened that people have tried to get their party's nomination for a second term. Or in the case of Teddy Roosevelt, he tries to stage a comeback and get it get the party's nomination again later and doesn't get it and runs as a third-party candidate. But not this exact scenario, no. Where you have a candidate who has a proven track record of beating the opponent that he is running against, and essentially, the top, top leadership in his own party who are known to really get behind the sitting president, because the incumbency is such an important factor in reelection. I think sometimes people forget what huge, what a huge leg up being an incumbent is. It is one of the keys to the presidency. If you are familiar with the work of political scientist, Allan Lichtman, he has developed these keys of like how to determine who is going to get elected and any toss up or in any presidential race, and he's very good at predicting it. The incumbency is a huge one. And so for the top members of the President's own party, to say, “Listen, we love you, man. But you got to go.” That is especially absent an extraordinary scandal. Right? Like with Nixon, we have this extraordinary scandal where it's like, of course, he needs to go. Even his own party was like, if you don't go, we're going to impeach you. You know that, that's a different scenario. Absent a really significant scandal, this is not something that I don't think anybody could have predicted this moment.

Maria
And so people say, who have not seen this before, who have not experienced this before, if he does go, what happens? If it does stay, what happens? Could they throw him out of the convention? Could it become an open convention? And what does that mean in this day and age?

Sharon
Yeah, well, conventions as you well know, used to be open. It used to be like, I don't know who's gonna get nominated. In fact, there were times in history, like James Garfield, who goes to the Republican Convention, and he was not running. And in fact, he was like, I do not consent to you choosing me as the nominee, I don't consent. And they like, “It’s Garfield!” You know, they choose him anyway, even though he did not go there. And he has to like, send a telegram to his wife. And he's like, I have to tell you something. And you know, so it has happened in the past, but again, we haven't had that kind of convention system in many, many, many decades. It's always clear now who the nominee is going to be when we get to the convention. And so you know, rules have changed over time. It doesn't mean that there's no scenario in which there could be an open convention. It doesn't mean there's no scenario. It's just extraordinarily unlikely. So, in many top Democrats minds, the best scenario, and I'm not saying this is the best scenario for the country, I'm just saying in their minds, this is the best scenario is that Biden graciously and willingly steps aside, realizes that this is a fraught political moment and says, for the good of the country, I am going to step aside. That's what they hope, some of them hope, not all. And that he leaves with dignity and does not get pushed out. He's had a long career in public service. Right?

Maria
Yeah. He just put a statement out and I want to read it to you. On Friday, so he just put it out on Friday. And he said, I have to find it. But it was basically like, I'm not going anywhere. I look forward to going back out on to, you know, out onto the trail. I look forward to taking on Donald Trump. Definitely does not sound like a person who is thinking about going anywhere. He said he was talking about President Trump and what former President Trump said in his convention, but he said, you know, “The stakes are high and the choice is clear. Together, we will win. And I look forward to making the case for my own record and the vision that I have for America, one where we save our democracy, protect our rights and freedoms and create opportunity for everyone. I look forward to getting back on the campaign trail next week.” And yesterday we heard he's going to make a speech on Sunday night. He's listened, he's reconsidered, maybe the Lord Almighty paid a visit. He has covid, and then Friday, boom, out comes this like I'm going back out. Don't doubt don't knock me down.

Sharon
You're absolutely right. Yesterday, MSNBC was out with what they say was deeply sourced reporting that they have five top White House inner circle type officials who are like, we're close. We're close to stepping aside. But his official campaign manager this morning said “Nope, we're staying in” as you just read. Biden says nope, we're staying in. And it's this I think, Maria that is particularly challenging for Americans. They're hearing all of these mixed messages, right? They just want everyone to get on board with one plan and move forward with it. And this kind of like, you know, top people saying resign, you got to step aside, buddy. And then him being like, No, I'm not going to I'm here. This tension is making things more difficult for people to deal with.

Maria
You think that turns people off of politics? You're spending your life trying to explain our government. Explain and educate us on our civics, help us understand this moment. Do you find people going like, “Oh, I'm out. This is crazy?”

Sharon
Totally. You know, a lot of people felt that way about the 2020 election, which again, no matter who you voted for, everyone agrees that was crazy. We don't want to repeat of that. And this is just more evidence to some people that like I don't want to deal with this. I have my own stuff to worry about. I have my own kids and my own life. My own job. I have my own things going on. And I don't have time to sort out who the candidates are. It's exhausting. That is how many, if not most Americans feel. You know, you've probably heard of this term, the exhausted majority, which is just like most Americans are not pundits, most Americans are not tweeting 25 times a day. They're just trying to live their lives. And they feel exhausted by this current amount of rancor by this current amount of infighting. But there's a lot of political infighting inside the Republican Party, this infighting inside the Democratic Party. For some people, they want somebody with a new vision. For somebody else, they just want a strong leader who they feel like they can look up to.

Maria
Does this say to the vast majority, the exhausted majorities, does this say like the system is broken, both parties are broken. We hear the Supreme Court is broken. We hear you know that we can't decide on a candidate—Does that say to you, democracy is really in trouble, our government's in trouble, or does it say to you this is the way democracy works. This is showing that a democracy is actually alive and well and thriving, and people are debating. Which one?

Sharon
I mean it's a little bit of both right? So yes, democracy is messy. It's historically been messy. As I just mentioned, the example of James Garfield, coming out of left field people essentially forcing him to be president. And there's a million other examples of very messy scenarios from history, where you're like, I don't even get what that was about, you know, like, I could give you 10 more stories off the top of my head, where things were very, very messy and we put the pieces back together, and moved forward. So I always encourage people to look at the big picture that even though these, in many ways are unprecedented times, America has lived through a number of very unprecedented times, and come out the other side. So this to me does not signal all hope is lost, forget it, burn it all down, it doesn't matter. I don't think that at all. What I do think is important to keep in mind in this moment, though, is that we cannot be complacent. We cannot just say to ourselves, it'll all work out. It's worked out before because people have made the choice to help it work out. Right, they have made the choice to continue to hope, despite evidence, immediate evidence to the contrary. And that is because hope is not a feeling that we wait to have descend upon us from the heavens. Hope is not a mathematical equation in which we get out of calculators and we determine that a plus b equals hope. Hope is a choice that we make. And we have the choice to continue to hope. And it is only through that choice to continue to hope that any positive change can come. If we become complacent if we become cynical, those do not lead us places we want to go. So I really encourage people to set aside the cynicism. Cynicism is not a path that we are going to be glad we took. Cynicism is what the vast majority of Russians are experiencing right now. They have a dictator at the helm. They feel with absolutely no power to do anything with their own government. They feel tremendous, tremendous amounts of cynicism. That is not going to lead us anywhere we want to go. You know, Abraham Lincoln at the close of the Civil War, or nearing the end of the Civil War, it's a second inauguration. People are out there actively trying to kill him. You know, they tried to kill him multiple times before they were successful. Half the country hates him so much that they would rather risk death than go along with his ideas. Imagine being at a workplace where people hate you so much, Maria, that they're like, I'd rather have my arm shot off, then go along with your ideas. That's the situation Abraham Lincoln was in. And he says at his second inaugural address that America remains one of the last great hopes on Earth. And if that was his perspective, that was his choice that he was making. That was not because Abraham Lincoln had a sunny disposition. He didn't. He was prone to depression. That was not because Abraham Lincoln looked around and was like, I see so many amazing things happening. No, all evidence to the contrary, Lincoln continued to make the choice to hope. And he did so as he said in his second inaugural address, “malice toward none and charity for all.” And I think that's an incredible vision that we can orient ourselves to. Even still today.

Maria
I love that, the choice to hope. We can't just sit around and be complacent. It’s a choice that’s in front of all of us, we can all be involved in the healing and the hope and reject the cynicism, as you said, you also have a new book coming out “The Small and the Mighty: Twelve Unsung Americans Who Changed The Course Of History, From The Founding To The Civil Rights Movement.” These are examples. These are profiles of hope. I was gonna say profiles of courage, but now they're—

Sharon
I’ll take profiles of courage. If it can be a profiles of courage, I'll take it Maria.

Maria
It's really it's another word. They're the same, right? These are profiles of people who sit back and say like, I'm just a regular person who am I to be involved? Who am I to run? Who am I to try to change the trajectory and you wanted to focus on people that said, I want to step in, I believe I can change it. I have hope. I want to be involved.

Sharon
That’s right. It's this idea that you need to be rich, powerful and famous to do something of consequence is something that most of our ancestors who have done incredible things in the world, an idea that they reject. We think today that you need to be a billionaire with like a personal spacecraft to be able to, like do anything meaningful, and I understand the inclination. You feel like listen, I make $19 an hour what am I going to do about this scenario? I understand that perspective. And I am a realist. I'm not somebody who sees life through rose-colored glasses. But many, if not, most of the really important things that have changed for the better in this country have been done by people who were small and mighty, who just decided, I don't care if it takes a long time. I don't care if the odds are against me. I don't care if y'all don't want me to, I'm not going to sit around and wait to be picked. I'm not going to sit around and wait for some dude with money to be like, how would you react? Why don't you do it? I'm not waiting for permission, I'm just going to do it. And I'm going to put one foot in front of the other. And that is power that all that many great Americans have shared that they have just made the choice to just start doing something. And it's a choice that we can all continue making today.

Maria
I love that. And that book is landing in the exact perfect moment. Because I think people do feel small. They don't necessarily feel mighty, they feel small and invisible, set up, exhausted. And I love pairing mighty with small, I love talking about the choice for hope, which is a choice that each of us have to get up and make a try. Each of us have to kind of do our own dark night of the soul and say, Where can I help? Where can I be involved? Where can I be mighty, right? Where can I make the difference that you're talking about these 12 individuals, ordinary Americans who formed the character of our country, and that's such a gift to all of us to remind us, to remind our kids, if we have adult kids who their view of politics—I keep reminding my kids it didn't used to be this way. You used to really, you know, be excited about a political campaign, inspired to give back to your country, to want to be a part of the hope, the solution of your country. And so I think that you remain optimistic at this moment, about our politics, our country, and the election process that we all find ourselves in.

Sharon
I'm optimistic about American’s ability to make change. I'm not saying hey, it's all well and good. We're all, everything's going to work out everyone just cross your fingers. I remain optimistic that great Americans are not people of the past. Great Americans, of course, have certainly existed in the past, but great Americans live. And we can all make the choice to be one of them. Right? We all have our own spheres of influence. And I think one thing that gets overwhelming to people is we look around and we feel like the size, the magnitude of the issues are so large, they're beyond our control. But I think it's important to remember that we all play a very important and integral part in making change. And Maria, your platform is different than my platform, the ability, the people you influence are different. Maybe there's overlap, but we have different spheres of influence. And somebody who is a teacher in a kindergarten has a different sphere of influence. And somebody who works as a nurse in the emergency room, different sphere of influence. The people who have influence over kindergarteners or patients should not think to themselves, who am I to do anything, in fact, what those people are doing. I'm a longtime teacher, you've worked in journalism for you know, many years, the people who've seen who feel like my job is so small, should always remember that the amount of influence they have over the people that they are interacting with, absolutely can and does change the world, that our schools, our houses of worship, our homes, our workplaces, we have a tremendous amount of influence over those places. And if we all exert the positive influence that we have on the places that already exist in our life, the people that already exist in our lives. This is a tremendous opportunity for us to make sea change, right for us to change the trajectory of history. If we all just decide that we are going to orient our spirits towards hope. And then we're going to make decisions from a place of ‘malice toward none, and charity for all.’ If we all decide to do that. What a change we would see right away.

Maria
I love that. Finally, Sharon, let me ask you so many people say like, I'm so confused. If Biden were to step aside, doesn't that automatically mean the vice president would step in? You know, is it? Can he throw it open? Can he stay president and just say, hey, you know, figure it out? And where does the money go that they've raised? Because I've heard it only goes to her? And can you just kind of parse that out for us?

Sharon
So it would depend on exactly how he does, if he decides to step aside. I don't think there's a good chance that he will resign the presidency, that does not seem to be on the table from any insider reporting, chances are good he remains President till the end of his term. If he decides to step aside, which is still an if. What would happen then is he would have the choice of whether or not he wants to endorse another candidate, the most logical candidate to endorse is the Vice President, for a variety of reasons. She is already in leadership in the executive branch. She already has high degrees of name recognition nationwide, which a large number of other candidates, maybe a governor from another state don't have that nationwide name recognition. The money that they have raised, that was directly sent to the, you know, Biden-Harris reelection fund, she would be able to use. So it is a logical, you know, a logical next step for him to make, but he's not obligated to make it. He can choose not to endorse anyone. He can say, I trust the leaders of the DNC and their infinite wisdom to come up with the process to choose somebody else. And it is theoretically possible that the Democrats could choose somebody who's not Harris.

Maria
With the money that they that the Biden Harris campaign have raised, could that go to whomever the nominee is?

Sharon
Theoretically, yes, it can go to say, a super PAC, that then would support that candidate. So people who run for office and raise money if they have unused campaign funds, they are allowed to donate unused campaign funds to things like super PACs. So that's often what happens if you are like, I'm at the end of my career. I'm 78 years old, I'm not running ever again, I still have $2 million, you are allowed to donate that somewhere else. But so that is potentially what could happen that it could go to a Super PAC that supports the Democratic candidate, just sort of in general, super PACs are not candidate specific in the sense that they go directly to the candidate. Super PACs do things like take out ads that support a specific idea, policy or party.

Maria
But wouldn't the Vice President have to agree to that since the money was raised as the Biden Harris campaign? So if she didn't get the nomination, or if somebody was fighting her for the nomination? Couldn't she say, Hey, I've got the money? So good luck, all you people, you better go with me, because I'm not giving you my money.

Sharon
She could say that she could say that. And that is a very, in addition to the lack of name recognition that some other candidates might have, the fund raising the lack of fundraising, that you know, the person is, would be starting so far behind, that is going to give the Democrats pause that like we don't want to take these 10s of millions of dollars, and have them held hostage and not be able to use them to try to get somebody reelected. So I do think it's the most likely explanation that if he does decide to not be the candidate that Harris would be the candidate instead is the most likely explanation.

Maria
But it's still coming back to what Sharon was saying in the beginning, it could still go to an open convention. And if the vice president doesn't get those votes, she would then have to be a part of agreeing well, okay, I want whoever the Democratic nominee is to get this money. So it could go into as Sharon was saying, a super PAC that the DNC could then direct to whoever that candidate is, but these are all big ifs. The President as I said, he's just on Friday said I'm looking forward to going back out, even though yesterday, everybody said he was going within and gonna say bye bye. Now today he's like, I'm ready. I'm ready to go. So don't count me out. So as you said, we have never seen this situation before. There is no scandal as you said. Age is the scandal here.

Sharon
Physical condition is the scandal. People feel like he, even if he is mentally sharp, they feel like he's having difficulty to some people communicating that. And there's a variety of explanations for that. And age does not necessarily mean somebody is infirm, right? You know, being older does not necessarily mean oh, well, you're not capable of doing the job. That's not true. But I think one of the disconnect is that some people feel like, I don't know how to make sense of what I'm what I'm seeing. So there's a challenge, a communication challenge of a lack of confidence in that in that area, I think is part of the big challenge.

Maria
And I think that it's people as you just said, they're seeing something that makes them afraid and makes them unsure. And then they feel they're being told that they're not seeing what they're seeing. And it's actually all fine and then that makes you crazy. Right?

Sharon
Some people feel a feel gaslit that like, Are you saying that I didn't see that? Because I did see that. And again, this is not a I'm not casting aspersions on anyone's character. I'm just like giving voice to what many Americans are experiencing right now. And a lot of people would say the same thing of Trump too, right. Like he rambles about things, he has he misspeaks. Like, there are many things that you could also point to that Trump does that, you know, you could make similar assumptions about.

Maria
And finally, I was alive when President Johnson decided not to run and his speech from the Oval Office was billed as simply a speech bad Vietnam and then he just threw in there. Oh, by the way, I'm not going to be seeking reelection. Everybody was like, whoa, what? So politics is full of, as you said, twists and turns the nominee, as you said, somebody who doesn't want to even run, and sometimes we might experience watching them take away the honor of running from somebody who does want to, so we'll stay tuned. And I love what you wrote, Sharon has a Substack that you can subscribe to and follow and also on Instagram as well and buy her book as we just said, “The Small and the Mighty: Twelve Unsung Americans Who Changed The Course Of History, From The Founding To The Civil Rights Movement” comes out in September, but you can preorder it. But she wrote in her Substack about love, love being actually what we need in a moment like this. And so often people go really? Like I talk often about love, people go like really Maria? And I'm like, Yeah, really. 

Sharon
Actually, actually, yes. What alternative do we have, Maria, hate? Where are we going to go with that?

Maria
Well it's like, where are we going to go with the cynicism? Where are we going to go with the throwing up of the hands? So we get to choose, as Sharon has said, we choose hope, we choose love, and we choose malice towards none. So Sharon, thank you so much. I'm so honored to talk to you always, let’s keep talking. We'll keep talking. Best of luck with the book. Thank you for helping us make sense, helping us understand, and giving us hope that we've been in some situation before and if we stay involved, get involved, and stay hopeful we'll find a way forward. Thank you.

Sharon
Thanks, Maria.