Doris Kearns Goodwin, the Pulitzer Prize-Winning Presidential Historian, on President Biden’s Historic Decision

(Recorded Monday, July 22, 2024) Doris Kearns Goodwin, a Pulitzer Prize-winning presidential historian and bestselling author of “An Unfinished Love Story: A Personal History of the 1960s,” takes us through her personal insight into President Johnson’s decision not to seek reelection in 1968 and gives us insight that only she can give into President Biden’s decision to do the same. 

Get your copy of Doris’s book An Unfinished Love Story: A Personal History of the 1960s here.

Full Transcript:

Please note this transcript was generated from the audio file using a transcription service and may contain errors. Please refer to the linked video to confirm accuracy.

Maria

I am thrilled to be talking to an old friend, a young friend, an esteemed friend. Someone who is in a league all of her own. Doris Kearns Goodwin knows more about the history of our country than anybody I know, anybody living, anybody who has ever walked the earth, she is the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, “An Unfinished Love Story: A Personal History of the 1960s.” She's also a Pulitzer Prize winning presidential historian and we have known each other forever and ever. And so it's a thrill to be talking with her. I can't think of anybody I'd like to talk to more than you, Doris right now, help us make sense of this extraordinary moment in our history. 

Doris

I’m so glad to be talking to you, Maria, I remember you from you were a little girl. So this is great. You know, I think the most important thing that's happened is that it's so hard for a president to relinquish the presidency, really, really hard to not have that second term. You know, all the presidents that I've lived with over time, you know, I feel like I know them. They all wanted a second term, it would endorse their first term, President Lincoln talked about that. He said he cared more about the second term than the first term. And yet he wanted to have his own presidency finished and do the second term. And that's exactly what Biden said. So I think for these last three weeks, just the tension that Biden has been living through must have been extraordinary. I mean, he was getting pressured to stand down from the race. He kept believing that he had come back from all these adversities before, and maybe he could come back from that disastrous debate performance. And then he was hearing his close friends and colleagues in Congress and Senate, telling him you can't. That you know, age is something, that it's not you can come back with will and hard work. And the perception that you're not going to be able to do the job in another four years if you're still there. And so he made that decision to stand down. And it did take everybody even though we knew it might have been coming. It's a big, historic moment. And you just have to feel how hard it is for a president to do that. I know from Lyndon Johnson, it was one of the hardest decisions he ever made. And you feel a certain empathy for him making it but I think he'll get what Lyndon Johnson did too. Accolades for having done so putting his country before himself, and maybe just a relief from that extraordinary pressure that he was under. 

Maria

You were saying that you you've actually really lived with presidents i.e. Lyndon Johnson and lived with the history of presidents you talk about Lincoln. What is it about this job that's so hard to let go of? And you've also talked a lot about that Biden is a person who meets adversity, who expects that of himself, who wants to show people look, I can come back, I've come back from all of these other things. 

Doris

I know when I think about the state of Lyndon Johnson's mind when he withdrew from the race, it should have been easy to know the extraordinary pressure he was under as you're saying all presidents do. And in his case, the war had made his opinion polls plummet down to the 20s, in the 30s. When he went out on the streets during the day, people were signing against him, ‘how many kids did you kill today?’ He was being battered in New Hampshire, he was going to lose in Wisconsin. And still he was holding on even though he could not sleep at night. He'd be haunted by this image that he was swimming in a river and trying to get to shore. And then it couldn't reach that shore, so he would turn around and swim the other way. And then he couldn't reach that shore, he was just caught in the middle. And so he finally decided he had to make a decision about the war itself. Because the war needed to be wound down, he was finally told, we didn't know this, when we were waiting for this his speech, we heard he was gonna give this speech. My husband was up in New Hampshire, actually, with McCarthy and Teddy White. And all we knew was that he was gonna make a speech on the war, we had no idea that it was going to be coupled with the withdrawal. But what he was told by the elders was that unless you wind the war down, you're gonna have to send 200,000 more troops, and only then it will be a stalemate. So he was making that huge decision to try and wind it down. But he knew nobody would believe him if he were a candidate. So that was really at issue with him. But nobody knew that that would be tacked on to this speech. So Teddy White and Dick, my husband, are listening to this speech. And Teddy White, the journalist, said something interesting. He saw something different in his face. He had seen him only five days before and he said he looked terrible five days before, his voice was soft. You could hardly hear him. His eyes were sunken. And now he saw him on the screen. He said, he looks relieved. He looks serene, almost he looks composed, something's up. This is even before he withdrew from the race. And he wasn't even sure he was gonna deliver that last paragraph. The people closest to him didn't know. And then finally when it came out, people just were yelling in their seats. I mean, it was just such a shock. Much more than the Biden thing was. It stung the country. 

Maria

I read that you're also saying that when Johnson going into that speech, he had this very high disapproval rating, and almost overnight, it changed. And I was watching all of the reaction to the President yesterday, on Sunday, when he delivered his letter that caught, seemed to catch, so many people off guard. All of a sudden people were heartbroken. They were ‘oh my gosh, this is one of the most consequential presidents of our lifetime. I'm so sad to see him go. But I also understand.’ What do you think it did to the American public about watching this man that millions had voted for to be reelected, that people who had you know high disapproval rating, but also the people knew, and I think expected on Friday, he had said, I'm going to stay in this race, and I'm going to see you out on the trail. 

Doris

All the feelings I think, before the speech, were mixed together with wanting him to stay in some of the, you know, fervent supporters, but others being upset and even angry and feeling he was being stubborn and preventing a real chance for the Democrats to even begin to win the race. So once he makes that decision, and then people begin to change their feelings back again, and realize that he had done something for the good of the country that might be hurtful to himself. It's almost like a little retirement for many people is like a little death, right? But in this case, as was said of LBJ, it seemed political suicide to retire because he'd been in public life his whole life, as had President Biden. So I think we're going to be seeing, you're already seeing among the people talking on television editorials. Now, the New York Times that had editorial just weeks ago, it was time for him to get out of the race, now talks about it as a principal decision. And the stock market went way up when Lyndon Johnson made his decision to withdraw because it made the possibility of peace. We'll see what the stock market does now. But it's a feeling of empathy that I think a lot of people will feel for the decision that he made. 

Maria

What happened with Johnson, because that's the most recent example, we have of someone giving it up—not of losing, because we have President Bush and Carter, who weren't elected to another term—but what was their reaction to staying in the office, even though in some ways they were lame duck. So what can we expect with Biden staying in? 

Doris

Well, you know, the interesting thing about LBJ was the reason he said he was withdrawing from the race was that he wanted to concentrate on bringing peace to Vietnam. And for a moment, it seemed like that might be actually happening. He withdraws on March 31. And then on April 3rd, North Vietnam sends a message that they'll come to the peace table. He said it was probably the happiest day of his presidency, he fills a plane with all the White House people and the State Department people that are going to go to Hawaii on April 4th, where he's going to join later that night after a congressional dinner. And then at 5:30, he gets the news that Martin Luther King had been shot. So everything changed after that. Riots happened in the streets. Two months later, Bobby Kennedy was killed. The peace talks stalled. And then the Democratic Party comes together in Chicago again as it was, as it’s going to be this year as well. And there's still chaos because the war is going on. The anti-war activists are there, they fight with the police. And then Teddy White, the same journalist I mentioned earlier, predicted that the Democrats had lost the election that night. But fate had intervened, who knows what would have happened if King hadn't been killed? If Bobby hadn't been killed? If Bobby had won the race, the Democrats had won, then his decision would have been a continuum to keep going the liberal philosophy that he cared about. So we'll see what happens with Biden, you know, it will make a big difference if whoever the nominee is wins the race, that he will have helped that happen. If that person loses, then people might question Could he have done it earlier? Should he have done it earlier? So we've got faith that we don't know where we're going on this, we can clearly know that we didn't know where we were a month ago to imagine that this could be happening. 

Maria

But what does he do now? Does he just say, I'm going to keep my eye on some of my pet projects? Does he go all in this race to help elect the Democratic nominee? Or how does he continue to wrap up his own presidency? And will people help him do that?  

Doris

That is a really good question, Maria, because in part in his letter, he said he wanted to focus, you know, on the presidential duties, and that would mean helping to bring peace if he could to the Middle Eastern situation, supporting Ukraine and the war of aggression against them by Russia, and knowing that those are the kinds of things that would help in the long run anyway, not only for himself and the country, but for the election. But it's hard to imagine that he'll stay away from the campaign trail as well. I mean, he's going to be endorsing, as he said, his Vice President, and I imagine he'll get—it's not like 68, where there was a primary campaign still going on so President Johnson couldn't endorse anybody still, until it was resolved in the nomination, but I suspect that he'll be focusing on presidential duties and the presidency will be using whatever resources it has. She has control of those in some ways, the money that was put into the campaign, the staff that would have been there for the campaign, she will already have if she is the nominee, she will have access to those. 

Maria

But will people take a quote lame duck president seriously Does he really have the power to get things done in this limited time? 

Doris

I think on foreign policy, he may still have the power. I mean, it certainly gets diminished when you're not going to be there much longer. Maybe the answer to your earlier question is, you almost have to do both. Because his power will depend in part on how the Democrats are doing in the election. If they're doing better, and they look like they might be winning, then his power, you know, exceeds itself. If not, then it probably will be less than if it looks like it's going to be a blowout. So maybe he'll be doing both at the same time hoping that it helps the country. 

Maria

This is conjecture, but what do you think changed for him? As I said, you know, Friday after the Republican Convention, he was like, I can't wait to get back out there and make my case, I can't wait to get back out there. And, you know, 30, some hours later, he's like, I'm gonna stand down. What do you think, made that happen? Because you also talk about Johnson up into the last second, you know, there was vacillating. What do you think, pushed him over? You know, 

Doris

I would guess that the conversations that he was having with his fellow congressmen and senators who were talking to him, not only the ones who went public and saying he should stand down, but many more in private who were saying that, and they were telling him, not just that they thought he should stand down but they were hearing reports from their constituents, you know, 90%, of whom said he should leave the race. And having been a man of Congress for such a long period of time, these were his colleagues that had to finally get absorbed by him even more important maybe than the polls, to hear those reports from his fellow colleagues. And finally, realizing that as much as you can change, you know, the way the debate was viewed, as much as you can come back from so many other things that you have in your life, it's hard to come back from the perception that you're too old for this, and that you may not make it through the next four years, with the kind of strength you would need to have.

Maria

This must be so heartbreaking for him on a personal level, as you said, this is a man who's really given his entire life, who prides himself also on the relationships that come from politics, right? You know, being that kind of stand-up guy to see people turning on him in these last couple of weeks, publicly, privately, what do you think that did to him? 

Doris

It must have been really, really hard. And you can see that there was a range of emotions that it provoked even more stubborn, I'm going to stay in this race feeling he was being betrayed, you know, saying, I'm going to show you in a certain sense and, and making the people themselves feel guilty, you know, the donors or elites, you know, these are not the people that are speaking that people still care about me. I can imagine that whole range of emotions that he went through. And that's why I'm imagining that maybe there's a relief now, that having so hard when you have a decision you're anticipating making, and it seems so hard to make. And then finally, when you make it, there's a release from that tension. And at least he knows now that those very same people, the editorialists, the donors, the colleagues, the senators, the congressmen are praising him for what he did, and also praising him. He's luckier in a way than some of the other presidents who had only one term. You know, people are saying pretty generally, that he's had a very good presidency, a consequential presidency. In a recent poll, he was ranked number 14, that's in the top third, for what he's already accomplished. Sometimes it takes much longer for that. Lyndon Johnson hoped that he would be in that group and he is in that group now but it's taken years for the domestic enormous accomplishments to come into focus with the war in Vietnam having seared that legacy into. So Biden's got that going for him, he can feel like he's already got a legacy and he can just hope that that this is the right decision. Who knows whether you second guess it as time goes by. Johnson began to second guess it in the summer after 68 When Humphrey wasn't catching on, and some of the senators came to him and said you should have stayed in. Then for a few minutes he thought, ‘Oh, my God, maybe I should have.’ And he was very jealous of Harry Truman's temperament because Harry Truman, once he made a decision, never went back. He never walked the carpet at light at night. And Johnson, would say I wish I could be more like Truman. So we'll see what happens with with Biden, whether he second guesses or whether this gives him a piece to go forward from the tension, which must as you say, it must have been terrible these last three weeks, some of the worst weeks, aside from the personal traumas that he experienced in his life. 

Maria

Doris, how will history treat him? How will you treat him? Because you're the one that people look to like to put it in context, how will you treat him?

Doris

Well, I think history, or me writing about him some years later, it takes it takes a while. I mean, even right now, as I'm saying, the domestic accomplishments that he was able to achieve in a very closely divided Congress, and he was able to go across party lines and make compromises that made the infrastructure possible. You know, the prescription drugs, the chips act, all the acts that have helped families and veterans over this period of time. And I think expanding NATO and support for Ukraine will be viewed well in history. Again, it will depend in part on what happens in this election, because whether he waited too long to let go, and it could have been a wider race among the Democrats, if the person wins that he is supporting, if Harris were to win, then that would give him a leg up, I think he'll be remembered for having beaten Trump in 2020. And for, you know for having, if people believe that, to save democracy. So there's a lot that he already has going, but it takes a while. For presidents it takes memoirs being written, it takes time, it makes light letters, diaries, coming out to see what kind of a leader was he and we know about his empathy, we know about his humility, some of the qualities we know about leaders we've already seen in him. But I wish I could come back 50 years from now, and I'll tell you much more about how He's regarded that I can do it today.

Maria

But a part of his story now will be age and letting go. Both of those two issues will be a big part of Joe Biden's legacy. He started so young, and he's ending at with age being very much a part of his story. 

Doris

You're so right. I mean, he was one of the youngest senators in history when he started. So he's got over 50 years in public service, and always was that young, fiery, young senator, and then stays and stays and stays, runs for the presidency several times and loses. Finally gets the presidency that he'd hoped for so long, and then comes up against this barrier of age. It's a hard thing. I mean, I'd like to believe that it depends on how you age, I feel like I'm still going to keep going. I'm the same age as he is. So it's hard for me when they say age prevents you. When it's time to retire, where am I going to retire to? I just want to keep doing what I'm doing. I love it so much. But I think in public life, it's hard. It's hard when people feel like you haven't got the vigor or the energy, or just the stamina that you're going to need for another four years. They weren't even judging against him, as I said, for the debate. They felt that even before the debate. Just looking at the age he was and what he would be, you'd be way farther older than any president we've ever had. 

Maria

Well, thank God at 81 you're still writing number one New York Times bestselling books, by the way. So I think it is a conversation I've been trying to say about how we age, and how also we treat people who are aging and in our kind of larger society, because so many people who are your age, who are my age, right? There's so many qualities that people bring to the table, so much experience that people do bring to the table. And we will see I think like you were just saying a very different President Biden, this week, next week, and I think one that might feel the weight of the world lifted, and maybe he'll find some new vigor. And then he also has the opportunity of a post-presidency that you know, so many people have done such incredible things with, right, what do you think he'll.. 

Doris

You know, I think, he's been saying all along that with age, just as you said, brings wisdom and perspective and experience. And now he can be relieved of having to prove every day that he's able to campaign and be out there with the vigor that you need to campaign. It's a different thing to campaign than it is to run the presidency. You're not making debates every day in the presidency, you're making decisions. You're surrounded by a group of people. And he rightly, I think, said, I've done a good job at that. And I think most people would regard that many of the things that he's done as in domestically and internationally have been shown that kind of age and experience and perspective. So now he can be all of that without having to prove that I can campaign like the next person and I can run around like the next person who doesn't have to do that anymore. And I think that will relieve a lot of tension and maybe free him to be the Joe Biden that he was earlier. 

Maria

That Doris Kearns Goodwin, thank you so much for joining us today. Once again, she is the author of the book, it's out right now: An Unfinished Love Story. And I had the gift of watching that love story in real life and it was a real love story and nothing quite like it. So buy the book and bask in it, learn from it. It's so beautiful made me smile, as I said when I got it on my desk. So thank you, Doris. 

Doris

What a pleasure to be with you again. This is terrific. Thank you so much. Take care.